is there a nonsupernatural way ,whatever that means, that the image could have been formed like that from the body...? I have not thought about the shroud for some time but remember talk about how the image could have been imprinted by the Resurrection... somehow that always seemed sort of physical to me but I suppose the event would be physical in some way wouldnt it? +S.
Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas recently proposed that extreme duress, such as severe torture, might cause the human body to excrete in the sweat a certain blend of chemicals that could react with the cotton fabric of the shroud, leaving a dark spot where the cotton touches the skin.
They also believe the image on the shroud is that of Jacques De Molay, the leader of the Knights Templar who was executed in 1307. It seems a strange suggestion, the kind a conspiracy theorist might put forward, but the argument does have a couple of compelling supporting facts. The carbon dating of the fabric would suggest a late 13th century origin. Secondly, the shroud was first presented in 1357 in Turin by the family of Geoffrey de Charney, another Templar who was executed along with de Molay.
I do not think that very likely...well de molay's torture and execution would not be confusable with that of Jesus I think. Apart from that the substantial evidence ,but this is the crux of it of course, for 1st century Palestine. as to the Temple you probably have read the book or might be interested in it which offered a more non loony idea and that is that the shroud had been received by the templars from constantinople (and accounts at once for the eastern iconography of the icon not made with hands and for the accusation of the worship of the "Templar Head" inasumuch as folded over the shroud would produce precisely that image). The authors proposed that what left the Paris Temple in a hay wagon on alert of police approach was the shroud. they fruther propose a relation of shroud to grail on the basis as I recall of the old french word graal and its range of meaning but anyway worth a look. However the key question which I am not convinced on is that of antiquity, it does seem that the early date evidence however is strong.
If it is medieval I would suppose it a work of some very subtle art rather than an image of a dead person... now this about excretion and fabric and the early date person (Jesus or not is another question although not perhaps simple to see how it would be another but it could be the Python's Bryan perhaps)could apply although I am not sure the image is consistent with that ... +Seraphim.
Well, of the non-supernatural ideas I've seen suggested, the idea of chemical excretions sounds relatively plausible.
And as to the de Molay idea: Lomas and Knight speculate that de Molay, who was accused of mocking Christ, might have been thus tortured in a way similar to Jesus. An observation that sounds a bit less speculative, though, is that the image on the Shroud appears more likely to be that of a medieval European than that of a first-century Palestinian.
speculative indeed, umm very weak argument I should say..but yes the key well then is dating, if it is first century then the image will be anyway of a first century sort of person if it is not...well it can be a medieval person but really I wonder if some very sophisticated art might not have created the negative effect of the image? or now I am perhaps getting into a weak speculative position...? of course I am not opposed to it being Jesus, let it be... but anyway on a lighter (or perhaps not lighter exactly) it is good that the Nazis did not get the idea of trying to test the possiblity of torturing people and wrapping them in shrowds to see if the turin effect would take place...it seems the sort of thing some occultist Nazi (granted fewer in number than the Morning of the Magicians would lead one to believe) might have done. +S.
As far as I can tell, all the theories of the image are natural rather than supernatural.
A bodily resurrection would be a miracle enough.
The Shroud, folded in a particular way and placed in a suitable shrine, is speculated to have been the "head" the Templars were accused of venerating, as well as the Mandylion of Edessa looted from Constantinople in 1204. Some have seen a resemblance to the Pantocrator painted in the dome of Dafni, where the object may have been taken for safekeeping before it came into Templar custody.
on another matter hope your move is not too chaotic and stressful...mine certainly had its moments(of course involving possible collapses of sale etc which is another sort of thing) and it was only 6 miles.
Read the article. I'm tired, so please excuse me if this sounds terse.
The evidence presented in the article, though, isn't actually much of evidence at all. Doubt about a test's validity isn't really evidence of something, so it can't be counted as part of a "mountain of evidence" toward any conclusion at all.
Also, I have seen a documentary about the shroud, and part of this was the work of an Italian scientist who had managed to find a reliable and repeatable way of reproducing images like that on the shroud using the bodies of dead animals. Unfortunately, this was at least four years ago, and I can't for the life of me recall the scientist's name or the university with which he was associated. I know this doesn't constitute evidence of anything to anyone but myself, but I'm quite certain that I saw the procedure done (it was purely chemical).
I don't know a thing about ancient stitching styles. Just off the cuff, I'd think that a stitching style used in the first century AD might still be around in the 14th. I'm sure that many of the possible methods one might currently use to stitch a seam have been around for centuries, even millenia. I'd be interested in finding out more about specifically why this particular stitching style is so unique. Ancient sewing must be the esoteric domain of a select few, no doubt!
As to the blood type, I didn't even know that typing had been done on the blood from the shroud. I'd thought that the only testing that had been allowed to date was the radioactive carbon testing done on the fabric and the rather non-invasive tests done in 1978 (and, oddly, neither of the two examinations mentioned in the article mentions blood typing as one of the tests performed). Did someone actually scrape some of the blood from the shroud? Also, AB is a rare blood type, but finding it in two individuals wouldn't give you the identity of either one of them, only the fact that they have the same blood type.
I hope I haven't misread the article, but it doesn't seem at first blush that anything in there points to a conlusion over and above the various theories that already exist. Again, it seems largely like speculation, based on my own very limited knowledge.
You're right, nothing very new here, except that the 1988 carbon dating has been called into question. To me it looked pretty questionable at the time, and I thought the Vatican was pretty foolish in their rush to distance themselves from the object for the sake of PR.
My own take on the subject is my typical one for religion. The shroud isn't commanding anyone to do anything, and frankly has no real effect on the world as an object per se. Whether it's objectively Christ's shroud or not shouldn't even be an issue, in the end. There's a certain train of thought, I guess, that relies on historicity as a proof of validity. I'm probably more concerned with the fact that a newspaper would publish such a sloppily thought out article than I am with whether there was ever a particular Nazarene walking around at a particular time. :)
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2004-04-06 08:58 pm (UTC)means, that the image could have been formed
like that from the body...?
I have not thought about the shroud for some
time but remember talk about how the image could
have been imprinted by the Resurrection...
somehow that always seemed sort of physical to me
but I suppose the event would be physical in some
way wouldnt it?
+S.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-06 09:18 pm (UTC)They also believe the image on the shroud is that of Jacques De Molay, the leader of the Knights Templar who was executed in 1307. It seems a strange suggestion, the kind a conspiracy theorist might put forward, but the argument does have a couple of compelling supporting facts. The carbon dating of the fabric would suggest a late 13th century origin. Secondly, the shroud was first presented in 1357 in Turin by the family of Geoffrey de Charney, another Templar who was executed along with de Molay.
temple
Date: 2004-04-06 09:28 pm (UTC)torture and execution would not be confusable
with that of Jesus I think. Apart from that the
substantial evidence ,but this is the crux of it
of course, for 1st century Palestine.
as to the Temple you probably have read the
book or might be interested in it which offered a
more non loony idea and that is that the shroud
had been received by the templars from constantinople
(and accounts at once for the eastern iconography
of the icon not made with hands and for the
accusation of the worship of the "Templar Head"
inasumuch as folded over the shroud would
produce precisely that image). The authors proposed
that what left the Paris Temple in a hay wagon
on alert of police approach was the shroud.
they fruther propose a relation of shroud to grail
on the basis as I recall of the old french word
graal and its range of meaning but anyway worth
a look.
However the key question which I am not
convinced on is that of antiquity, it does seem
that the early date evidence however is strong.
If it is medieval I would suppose it a work of
some very subtle art rather than an image of
a dead person...
now this about excretion and fabric and the
early date person (Jesus or not is another
question although not perhaps simple to see how
it would be another but it could be the Python's
Bryan perhaps)could apply although I am not sure
the image is consistent with that ...
+Seraphim.
Re: temple
Date: 2004-04-06 10:06 pm (UTC)And as to the de Molay idea: Lomas and Knight speculate that de Molay, who was accused of mocking Christ, might have been thus tortured in a way similar to Jesus. An observation that sounds a bit less speculative, though, is that the image on the Shroud appears more likely to be that of a medieval European than that of a first-century Palestinian.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-06 10:12 pm (UTC)weak argument I should say..but yes the
key well then is dating, if it is first century then
the image will be anyway of a first century sort
of person if it is not...well it can be a medieval
person but really I wonder if some very sophisticated
art might not have created the negative effect of
the image? or now I am perhaps getting into
a weak speculative position...? of course I am not
opposed to it being Jesus, let it be... but anyway on
a lighter (or perhaps not lighter exactly) it is good
that the Nazis did not get the idea of trying to
test the possiblity of torturing people and wrapping
them in shrowds to see if the turin effect would
take place...it seems the sort of thing some occultist
Nazi (granted fewer in number than the Morning
of the Magicians would lead one to believe) might
have done.
+S.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-07 09:52 am (UTC)A bodily resurrection would be a miracle enough.
The Shroud, folded in a particular way and placed in a suitable shrine, is speculated to have been the "head" the Templars were accused of venerating, as well as the Mandylion of Edessa looted from Constantinople in 1204. Some have seen a resemblance to the Pantocrator painted in the dome of Dafni, where the object may have been taken for safekeeping before it came into Templar custody.
moving
Date: 2004-04-06 09:49 pm (UTC)too chaotic and stressful...mine certainly
had its moments(of course involving possible
collapses of sale etc which is another sort of
thing) and it was only 6 miles.
Re: moving
Date: 2004-04-06 10:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-06 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-06 11:03 pm (UTC)The evidence presented in the article, though, isn't actually much of evidence at all. Doubt about a test's validity isn't really evidence of something, so it can't be counted as part of a "mountain of evidence" toward any conclusion at all.
Also, I have seen a documentary about the shroud, and part of this was the work of an Italian scientist who had managed to find a reliable and repeatable way of reproducing images like that on the shroud using the bodies of dead animals. Unfortunately, this was at least four years ago, and I can't for the life of me recall the scientist's name or the university with which he was associated. I know this doesn't constitute evidence of anything to anyone but myself, but I'm quite certain that I saw the procedure done (it was purely chemical).
I don't know a thing about ancient stitching styles. Just off the cuff, I'd think that a stitching style used in the first century AD might still be around in the 14th. I'm sure that many of the possible methods one might currently use to stitch a seam have been around for centuries, even millenia. I'd be interested in finding out more about specifically why this particular stitching style is so unique. Ancient sewing must be the esoteric domain of a select few, no doubt!
As to the blood type, I didn't even know that typing had been done on the blood from the shroud. I'd thought that the only testing that had been allowed to date was the radioactive carbon testing done on the fabric and the rather non-invasive tests done in 1978 (and, oddly, neither of the two examinations mentioned in the article mentions blood typing as one of the tests performed). Did someone actually scrape some of the blood from the shroud? Also, AB is a rare blood type, but finding it in two individuals wouldn't give you the identity of either one of them, only the fact that they have the same blood type.
I hope I haven't misread the article, but it doesn't seem at first blush that anything in there points to a conlusion over and above the various theories that already exist. Again, it seems largely like speculation, based on my own very limited knowledge.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-07 09:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-07 05:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-07 12:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-07 07:17 am (UTC)