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"My brother Esau is an hairy man..."
Canadian archeologist Russell Adams's interest is in Bronze Age and Iron Age copper production. He never intended to walk into archeology's vicious debate over the historical accuracy of the Old Testament -- a conflict likened by one historian to a pack of feral canines at each other's throats.
Yet by coincidence, Prof. Adams of Hamilton's McMaster University says, he and an international team of colleagues fit into place a significant piece of the puzzle of human history in the Middle East -- unearthing information that points to the existence of the Bible's vilified Kingdom of Edom at precisely the time the Bible says it existed, and contradicting widespread academic belief that it did not come into being until 200 years later.
Their findings mean that those scholars convinced that the Hebrew Old Testament is at best a compendium of revisionist, fragmented history, mixed with folklore and theology, and at worst a piece of outright propaganda, likely will have to apply the brakes to their thinking.
Because, if the little bit of the Old Testament's narrative that Prof. Adams and his colleagues have looked at is true, other bits could be true as well.
References to the Kingdom of Edom -- almost none of them complimentary -- are woven through the Old Testament. It existed in what is today southern Jordan, next door to Israel, and the relationship between the biblical Edomites and Israelites was one of unrelenting hostility and warfare.
The team led by Prof. Adams, Thomas Levy of the University of California at San Diego and Mohammad Najjar of the Jordanian Department of Antiquities was investigating copper mining and smelting at a site called Khirbat en-Nahas, by far the largest copper-production site in the region.
They applied high-precision radiocarbon-dating methods to some of their finds, and as they say in the British journal Antiquities, "The results were spectacular."
They firmly established that occupation of the site began in the 11th century BC and a monumental fortress was built in the 10th century BC, supporting the argument for existence of an Edomite state at least 200 years earlier than had been assumed.
What is particularly exciting about their find is that it implies the existence of an Edomite state at the time the Bible says King David and his son Solomon ruled over a powerful united kingdom of Israel and Judah.
It is the historical accuracy -- the very existence of this united kingdom and the might and splendour of David and Solomon, as well as the existence of surrounding kingdoms -- that lies at the heart of the archeological dispute.
Those scholars known as minimalists argue that what is known as "state formation" -- the emergence of regional governments and kings -- did not take place in the area until the imperialistic expansion of the Assyrian empire in the 8th century BC, so David and Solomon, rather than being mighty monarchs, were mere petty chieftains.
And because everything that takes place in the Middle East inevitably is political, the minimalist argument is seen as weakening modern Israel's claim to Palestine.
In the biblical narrative, the Edomites are the descendents of Esau, whose blessing from his father, Isaac, was stolen by his younger brother, Jacob, ancestor of the Israelites. (Fans of the British satirical-comedy group Beyond the Fringe will recall how Jacob pulled off the theft by presenting himself as the hirsute Esau to their blind father, saying in an aside: "My brother Esau is an hairy man, but I am a smooth man.")
The Edomites are lambasted in the Bible for refusing to let the Israelites rest on their land as they flee Egypt. God declares obscurely: "Over Edom will I cast out my shoe." The Israelites grumble enviously that there were kings of Edom before there were kings of Israel -- a highly significant passage because it implies that state formation occurred in Edom before it happened in Israel.
Finally, there is the biblical account of David's war against the Edomites, in which David and his general, Joab, kill 18,000 Edomites and establish military control over them by "putting garrisons throughout all Edom."
Irish scholar John Bartlett, one of the world's great experts on the Edomites, dates the battle at 990 to 980 BC, precisely when Prof. Adams and his colleagues date the fortress.
Says Prof. Adams: "This battle between the Israelites and the Edomites, although not possible to document, is typical of the sort of border conflicts between Iron Age states. And the evidence of our new dates at least proves that it may, in fact, be possible to place the Edomites in the 10th century [BC] or earlier, which now supports the chronology of the biblical accounts.
"It is intriguing that at Khirbat en-Nahas, our large Iron Age fort is dated to just this period, suggesting conflict as a central concern even at a remote copper-production site."
He concludes: "We're not out to prove the Bible right or wrong. We're not trying to be controversial. We're just trying to be good anthropologists and scientists, and tell the story of our archeological site."
Source : The Globe and Mail
The link is to an Iranian site, which formats paragraphs as single lines. No doubt the Canadian original is on line as well and easier to read, but I thought I would pop it in here anyway.
Of course finding the Hebrew Bible accurate in one small part does not guarantee any other part; it is after all a very varied collection of writings. And it underwrites the Zionist claim to Palestine only on the to me rather shaky assumption that Jesus was in no sense the Christ, and was rightly rejected and condemned.
I hope the mention of Christ does not offend my numerous non-Christian friends.
In other news, Happy birthday dear Gottlieb, happy birthday to you. How well I remember that summer in Salzburg! And a glorious feast of the translation of the relics of St. John Chrysostom, for whom he was named, and, more particular to me, the forefeast of St. Ephrem of Nisibis, known in ancient times as the Harp of Edessa, and thus one of the earliest Irishmen known to history.
Yet by coincidence, Prof. Adams of Hamilton's McMaster University says, he and an international team of colleagues fit into place a significant piece of the puzzle of human history in the Middle East -- unearthing information that points to the existence of the Bible's vilified Kingdom of Edom at precisely the time the Bible says it existed, and contradicting widespread academic belief that it did not come into being until 200 years later.
Their findings mean that those scholars convinced that the Hebrew Old Testament is at best a compendium of revisionist, fragmented history, mixed with folklore and theology, and at worst a piece of outright propaganda, likely will have to apply the brakes to their thinking.
Because, if the little bit of the Old Testament's narrative that Prof. Adams and his colleagues have looked at is true, other bits could be true as well.
References to the Kingdom of Edom -- almost none of them complimentary -- are woven through the Old Testament. It existed in what is today southern Jordan, next door to Israel, and the relationship between the biblical Edomites and Israelites was one of unrelenting hostility and warfare.
The team led by Prof. Adams, Thomas Levy of the University of California at San Diego and Mohammad Najjar of the Jordanian Department of Antiquities was investigating copper mining and smelting at a site called Khirbat en-Nahas, by far the largest copper-production site in the region.
They applied high-precision radiocarbon-dating methods to some of their finds, and as they say in the British journal Antiquities, "The results were spectacular."
They firmly established that occupation of the site began in the 11th century BC and a monumental fortress was built in the 10th century BC, supporting the argument for existence of an Edomite state at least 200 years earlier than had been assumed.
What is particularly exciting about their find is that it implies the existence of an Edomite state at the time the Bible says King David and his son Solomon ruled over a powerful united kingdom of Israel and Judah.
It is the historical accuracy -- the very existence of this united kingdom and the might and splendour of David and Solomon, as well as the existence of surrounding kingdoms -- that lies at the heart of the archeological dispute.
Those scholars known as minimalists argue that what is known as "state formation" -- the emergence of regional governments and kings -- did not take place in the area until the imperialistic expansion of the Assyrian empire in the 8th century BC, so David and Solomon, rather than being mighty monarchs, were mere petty chieftains.
And because everything that takes place in the Middle East inevitably is political, the minimalist argument is seen as weakening modern Israel's claim to Palestine.
In the biblical narrative, the Edomites are the descendents of Esau, whose blessing from his father, Isaac, was stolen by his younger brother, Jacob, ancestor of the Israelites. (Fans of the British satirical-comedy group Beyond the Fringe will recall how Jacob pulled off the theft by presenting himself as the hirsute Esau to their blind father, saying in an aside: "My brother Esau is an hairy man, but I am a smooth man.")
The Edomites are lambasted in the Bible for refusing to let the Israelites rest on their land as they flee Egypt. God declares obscurely: "Over Edom will I cast out my shoe." The Israelites grumble enviously that there were kings of Edom before there were kings of Israel -- a highly significant passage because it implies that state formation occurred in Edom before it happened in Israel.
Finally, there is the biblical account of David's war against the Edomites, in which David and his general, Joab, kill 18,000 Edomites and establish military control over them by "putting garrisons throughout all Edom."
Irish scholar John Bartlett, one of the world's great experts on the Edomites, dates the battle at 990 to 980 BC, precisely when Prof. Adams and his colleagues date the fortress.
Says Prof. Adams: "This battle between the Israelites and the Edomites, although not possible to document, is typical of the sort of border conflicts between Iron Age states. And the evidence of our new dates at least proves that it may, in fact, be possible to place the Edomites in the 10th century [BC] or earlier, which now supports the chronology of the biblical accounts.
"It is intriguing that at Khirbat en-Nahas, our large Iron Age fort is dated to just this period, suggesting conflict as a central concern even at a remote copper-production site."
He concludes: "We're not out to prove the Bible right or wrong. We're not trying to be controversial. We're just trying to be good anthropologists and scientists, and tell the story of our archeological site."
Source : The Globe and Mail
The link is to an Iranian site, which formats paragraphs as single lines. No doubt the Canadian original is on line as well and easier to read, but I thought I would pop it in here anyway.
Of course finding the Hebrew Bible accurate in one small part does not guarantee any other part; it is after all a very varied collection of writings. And it underwrites the Zionist claim to Palestine only on the to me rather shaky assumption that Jesus was in no sense the Christ, and was rightly rejected and condemned.
I hope the mention of Christ does not offend my numerous non-Christian friends.
In other news, Happy birthday dear Gottlieb, happy birthday to you. How well I remember that summer in Salzburg! And a glorious feast of the translation of the relics of St. John Chrysostom, for whom he was named, and, more particular to me, the forefeast of St. Ephrem of Nisibis, known in ancient times as the Harp of Edessa, and thus one of the earliest Irishmen known to history.
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"I hope the last remark does not offend my numerous Pagan friends."
What would offend me, whether or not people believe Christ was the son of God, is that anyone could possibly think that his persecution was right or that he should have been condemned for what he preached.
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You are also a friend of Gottlieb, I assume, in spite of the rude remarks to his Waldhornspieler?
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If only I could reconcile Christianity (as I perceive it) with Christ's teachings, I would embrace the former and allow myself to be thusly labeled.
Needless to say, this non-Christian will never be offended by mentions of Christ except those that pervert the beautiful message of love he brought to the world, which are -- sadly -- found in abundance.
eh?
the right of Jewish people to live in
that land, are you saying that because
Jesus is Christ they do not still have
the right to be there? it does not compute,
at least to me.
Re: eh?
Do I have a right to return to Castile because Diego Rodriguez Porcel was Count there?
I do have the right to an Irish passport, but I am not entitled to evict the present proprietor of Loughmoe Court, or even the inhabitants of the meanest hovel.
promise to Abraham
contemptible Baptists perhaps, but
I believe the promise to Abraham
to Isaac and to Jacob of the land to
their descendants to the Jewish people
holds until the end of all things...
In any case it will not do I think to
say it is abbrogated by Jesus, that
I do not follow at all. I also believe
in the Palestinians right to their place
in the land(although they were few at
the beginning of the 20th century for
example they now are a real people
needing a home land they can identify
with historicall. a science fictional
alternate worlds solution sometimes
seems the only possible full solution
but the right of Israel I do believe in
and think in general Christian thought
would hold to it).
+Seraphim.
Re: promise to Abraham
We cannot support what the Israelis did to the Palestinians -- I wrote Zionists at first, but that was unfair to the memory of the original Zionists of Palestine, who were for the most part decent and humane. Nor can we support what the radical Palestinians want to do to the Israelis. Even al Quaeda doesn't, which is why their leadership wasn't decimated by the Mossad hit men.
different question
a different problematics than that of
the promise of the land to the Jewish
people and its not being abbrogated by
the coming of Jesus, it is these things
that I believe are right to hold, though
someone may disagree...and surely not
the way any people at any time behave
to any other which in detail can be very
terrible. But what you say here seems
again to be an entirely separate point
this time isnt it?
Re: different question
That the Christian Zionists are raising money to settle moe ethnic Jews on the West Bank to prevent Israel from withdrawing from it, is vile.
that and fr david's job situation
and characterize strongly those with whom
you are not in agreement, and it is
fair in all this. I think I have said
enough on it, adding things up in a slightly
different way and not accepting that the
New Israel is contradictory to the continuation
of a real covenant with the historical Jewish
people, the Old Israel who are a part also
of the Divine purpose,as indeed of course
are all peoples and faiths but in this specific
matter of the land also on which we then differ
a bit...not all that much but the difference
projected over the thousands of years leads
to a different political thought at moments.
we join surely in praying and hoping for
justice for all the peoples , God loved, Arab
and Jewish and other...
well , uh on another matter how is the job hunt
coming...fr Daivid's parish just voted to cut
off his salary so he needs work full time.
pray for it ...and yours
+Seraphim
Re: that and fr david's job situation
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which is fine with him if he can get a fulltime
job, how is your job seacrc? of course as fr dave
says a jobsearch typically takes 6 months or more
and he has at most luxury of one or two.
Re: different question
The basic humanitarian premise is that there is some sort of statute of limitations on when a people is permanently displaced, regardless of their religious or historical ties to a particular landscape.
I read you as agreeing with some sort of reasonable statute of limitations. Am I wrong in assessing your opinion?
Re: different question
In particular, I was writing in response to an Orthodox Bishop who cited God's promise to Abraham in defense of modern Israel, a promise that Orthodox and Catholic Christianity has always seen as fulfilled in Christianity.
Yes, it would be just as wrong if the Palestinians were Hindu, and I would expect my wife and her family to have a special concern for them. But the fact that these people are Christians of the ancient churches makes them especially hated by religious Jews, who consider them wicked followers of the false Messiah, and by extreme Protestants, who consider them despicable spawn of the Antichrist.
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Or are you saying the Palestinians / Turks didn't mind working as laborers after being landowners?????
Or maybe I just can't read. Which is a real possibility.
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Hi Sweetie, I just wanted to come by and wish you a Happy Belated Birthday and a Super Happy New Year even though it's getting a little late in the month to keep saying this! I've been out of town and off line for a little bit -- so I'm sorry this is a bit late.
Happy Birthday to you
Happy Birthday to you
Happy Birthday dear Frank : )
Happy Birthday to you
Big loving hugs from your LJ pal,
Jacqui
XOXOXOX
PS: You go ahead and mention Christ, Buddha, or any Rabinical scholar you like, if anyone is that easily offended, well, then #$%^ them ; )
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